[cough]…hello, anyone out there?
April 17, 2007
I’m dusting off this old blog in hopes that we can spur on discussions in our class. We’ve had great conversations in our class in the past and my hope is that by posting the scripture (whenever possible) for our next Sunday meeting we’ll be more prepared to work through the text. As a help you can download E-Sword. It’s a free, high quality study aid. You can grab several translations (CEV, ESV, GNT, ISV, KJV…) and read them in parallel. From the author:
The fact that e-Sword is free is just one of the blessings and does not speak of the quality of the software. I make my living writing software and I believe I have put forth my best effort in this endeavor. The real work, however, was put in by the godly men and women who devoted countless years creating the texts that have been made available for our benefit.
While it is free, he does accept donations. You can download it here.
April 17, 2007 at 1:35 pm
Thought I would throw out there that this weeks discussion was very balanced. I have always been concerned the church not “make up” reasons for some of its preferences. I use the word preference to underscore the lack of a thou shalt not. My conversations with both those in the church and without, represents a belief held by many that sometimes we make stuff up and then look for scripture verses to back it up. This is, I hope, the reverse of what we really do. We think many practices are dangerous and should probably be avoided. However, many of the “things” we preach against are not strictly forbidden in scripture. We should admit this upfront. It really weakens any credibility, as Fred pointed out, to argue, “wine”, doesn’t mean wine in the NT and OT. I think, and this is just me, a better position would be, yes it was wine, but many prefer for a variety of reasons not to drink it some of which could be based on biblical principals of wisdom. Just as, I prefer for a variety of reasons not to run with scissors. I think its dangerous. Then follow it up with a conversation about drink and the wise christian. If we start to argue that “wine” is not wine in the NT, then isn’t it really a fair argument for the unbeliever or struggling believer to argue, well is “forgiveness” forgiveness? “Fornication” fornication? Is “salvation” salvation, and is the “good news” really good. Didn’t someone recently argue the definition of “is?” Many really do adopt the argument the word “homosexuality” really doesn’t mean homosexuality in the scriptures. This is of course a really dumb thing to say when you look at the whole of Christian teaching. The word means what it says.
I have rambled on quite long enough, but I also want to point out, the passage we discussed on Sunday doesn’t even mention wine. It talks about drink and food offered to idols. So maybe this is a conversation for another passage.
April 17, 2007 at 2:38 pm
Thanks for your reply Clint. No, wine is not in the passage we discussed Sunday. I have kicked myself for saying what I said 1000 times. What we were discussing was a tension between holy living and maintaining relationships outside the church. I was referring to 1 Cor 5:25-33 (See http://www.ebible.com/bible/ESV/1%20Corinthians%2010%3A25-33)
when I, incorrectly, said “What would people say when they saw Mike having a glass of wine with dinner at so-and-so’s house”. That was not an attempt to change gears and discuss drinking. That was not an attempt to puff me up (a la 1 Cor 3:4). I did NOT seek to offend (not that there’s anything wrong with that if it’s an “essential”) anyone with my poor choice of analogy. What I was _trying_ to say, and I do see as “essential”, is that we (as followers of Christ) should be eating and drinking with not-yet-Christians every chance we get. We should have tension in our lives from being with “the wrong people.” That’s where a community of believers (Thank you Matt) comes in to check us, to pray for us, make sure we don’t “go native”, so to speak. In doing that we will have more friction and tension, but for Paul it was no question, “eat whatever is put before [at an unbelievers house]” -1 Cor. 10:27. I think John’s post (http://echurch.wordpress.com/2007/04/16/test-for-echo-thoughts-from-1-corinthians/) raises some GREAT points in regards to this.
April 17, 2007 at 3:48 pm
Mike,
I quite honestly believe the passage contains principles as regards many principles of Christian living…including alcohol. Of course you are correct, the 1 Cor. 5:25-33 passage does speak more to the point.
My point is this…sometimes the natives are right. Probably on a great many of the issues, the natives (which I think is a great way to put it and funny to boot) know exactly what they are talking about. The natives of course really begin to screw it up when they delve into purely spiritual matters because they are blind to such matters. I wouldn’t expect a blind person to evaluate my photographs.
I also heartily agree with you…we should be eating and drinking with the “natives” (now I can’t stop using the term) every chance we get…and hopefully the conversation will not be about whether they should be drinking, smoking, fornicating or any other matter except the solid, truthful, and utterly sensible positions of the good news, Christianity, the reality of God and every other really important issue the scriptures address. People don’t “go to hell” because they drink, smoke or fornicate, they “go to hell” because they reject the reality of Christ and refuse to recognize his rock solid relevance for their lives and the absolute obedience Christ demands.
Anything else in relation to the “natives” is irrelevant.